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Springing off of a comment on an earlier post, I had this extremely nerdy idea a while ago, so why not?

D&D Basic Rules

Way back in the day, I played Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Yes, yes, it's true. I even had the original blue box basic D&D set.

By high school I had left AD&D behind and have never really looked back (for many years I was more of a Champions and GURPS grognard), but let's face it, everyone who has ever played a roleplaying game, even if they sniff disdainfully at AD&D, is familiar with the tropes pioneered by that game.

So, for anyone nerdy enough to be familiar with them, here's an AD&D alignment poll for my AQ characters. (Here is a summary of alignments if you need a refresher/guide.)

We're going by the original AD&D alignment chart.

AD&D Alignments

Blink Dogs. Seriously.

Or if you prefer one of a bajillion images online mapping various fictional characters to alignments:

The Wire alignments

It took me a while to find one I agreed with. Also, The Wire is fucking awesome.

So, without entering into an extensive debate on the validity/utility of AD&D alignments (I had those debates so many times in high school...), consider this "just for fun."

I will let the poll run for a while, and then eventually post my own Absolutely Correct and Inarguable Word of God interpretations. :P

I'm not including all the minor characters because it's a pain — LJ requires I manually enter the fields for every single character. But feel free to speculate in the comments if you like.



Poll #1942893 Alexandra Quick - AD&D alignments

Alexandra Quick

Lawful Good
0(0.0%)
Neutral Good
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Good
14(87.5%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Neutral
2(12.5%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

Anna Chu

Lawful Good
12(80.0%)
Neutral Good
3(20.0%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Neutral
0(0.0%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

David Washington

Lawful Good
1(6.7%)
Neutral Good
14(93.3%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Neutral
0(0.0%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

Constance Pritchard

Lawful Good
11(73.3%)
Neutral Good
3(20.0%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Neutral
0(0.0%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

Forbearance Pritchard

Lawful Good
13(86.7%)
Neutral Good
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Neutral
0(0.0%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

Innocence Pritchard

Lawful Good
0(0.0%)
Neutral Good
3(20.0%)
Chaotic Good
10(66.7%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Neutral
1(6.7%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

Julia King

Lawful Good
2(13.3%)
Neutral Good
9(60.0%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Neutral
0(0.0%)
Neutral
3(20.0%)

Maximilian King

Lawful Good
2(13.3%)
Neutral Good
2(13.3%)
Chaotic Good
1(6.7%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
4(26.7%)
Chaotic Neutral
4(26.7%)
Neutral
2(13.3%)

Darla Dearborn

Lawful Good
0(0.0%)
Neutral Good
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
3(20.0%)
Neutral Evil
5(33.3%)
Chaotic Evil
1(6.7%)
Lawful Neutral
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Neutral
6(40.0%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

Larry Albo

Lawful Good
0(0.0%)
Neutral Good
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
1(6.7%)
Neutral Evil
2(13.3%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
2(13.3%)
Chaotic Neutral
2(13.3%)
Neutral
8(53.3%)

Lilith Grimm

Lawful Good
3(20.0%)
Neutral Good
5(33.3%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
3(20.0%)
Neutral Evil
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
2(13.3%)
Chaotic Neutral
0(0.0%)
Neutral
1(6.7%)

Diana Grimm

Lawful Good
0(0.0%)
Neutral Good
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
4(26.7%)
Neutral Evil
1(6.7%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
7(46.7%)
Chaotic Neutral
2(13.3%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)

Mary Shirtliffe

Lawful Good
7(46.7%)
Neutral Good
3(20.0%)
Chaotic Good
0(0.0%)
Lawful Evil
0(0.0%)
Neutral Evil
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Evil
0(0.0%)
Lawful Neutral
4(26.7%)
Chaotic Neutral
0(0.0%)
Neutral
1(6.7%)

Abraham Thorn

Lawful Good
0(0.0%)
Neutral Good
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Good
1(6.7%)
Lawful Evil
1(6.7%)
Neutral Evil
4(26.7%)
Chaotic Evil
3(20.0%)
Lawful Neutral
0(0.0%)
Chaotic Neutral
6(40.0%)
Neutral
0(0.0%)


Comments

( 41 comments — Leave a comment )
Graeme Sutton
Nov. 11th, 2013 06:03 pm (UTC)
Nerdgasm
Given a little more leeway I would have put Abraham Thorn as Selfish Good and Diana Grimm as Lawful Neutral leaning Lawful Evil. I admit it's entirely possible that Abraham will jump off the slippery slope somewhere along the way but so far to me he seems like a dude who's ultimately on the side of the angels, without being one himself, and is willing to do or use anything or anyone for what he perceives as the greater good. If you consider him evil then I'd say LE probably fits him best.
On Diana, I admit that she hasn't been confirmed to have done anything that would make her evil, but reading between the lines on the Stars Above I'd say she's been a very naughty girl indeed. Also, she seems to be way to high up in the confederation to not understand how evil the system she's defending is which, while it may be defensible for a lawful neutral, puts her farther into the evil column the higher up she is.
I might have put Lilith on the lighter side of LN, but with Mary Shirtliffe vouching for her I'll grant a very bitchy LG. When it comes down to it she never seems to miss an opportunity to do what she perceives as the right thing, even if she's usually as bitchy as possible while doing it.
I remember about half-way through the Lands Below thinking that Alexandra was like some kind of Chaotic Good Avatar considering how perfectly she fit the alignment. Then The Stars Above came around and that became canon. I think that future editions of players handbook should probably mention her in the entry on chaotic good and list this fic as recommended reading.
I put LN for Larry, basically for massive jerkass balanced out by sense of honour.
Darla started out TN then went NE.
I put Max as LN with possible switch to Good with Character Development. Like Larry he pretty much fits the Jerkass moderated by sense of honour/duty LN. While he has empathy for family and friends and a sense of responsibility, he's brutal towards those he views as enemies and largely indifferent to others and his overall goal (restore family honor) is a pretty Archtypical LN motivation.
A couple people I would have liked to see on the poll: John Manuelito (CE because duh), Tomo Matsuzaka (LG), Elias Hucksteen (NE).
Did you arrive at Alexandra's class level by saying she started out as a level 2 thief, then dual-classed to mage and leveled up once per year so Thief 2/Mage 4? Also, what would her school specialization be? I'm thinking Evoker.
Parting word: S12 D18 (With Improved Initiative cuz seriously when has she not won initiative?) C15 I17 W9(With Iron Will, Greater Iron Will, Alertness as feats) Ch15

Edited at 2013-11-11 06:11 pm (UTC)
inverarity
Nov. 11th, 2013 07:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Nerdgasm
I confess I did not spend a lot of time working out Alexandra's class progression - I just figured 6th level because that's what she needs to be able to cast Lightning Bolt. ;)

School specialization? We didn't have no school specializations back in 2nd Edition, man!
Re: Nerdgasm - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 11th, 2013 09:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Nerdgasm - inverarity - Nov. 11th, 2013 09:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Nerdgasm - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 11th, 2013 10:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
swissmarg
Nov. 11th, 2013 08:18 pm (UTC)
Haha, I love how the answers are literally all over the place for some characters and pretty much unanimous for others. I also played D&D (the original) as well as AD&D, and I still found it difficult to suss out the nuances of some of the alignments. I'd find it easier to sort them into Hogwarts Houses. I probably based my answers here on general impressions or on single incidents, rather than carefully cataloguing every action and motivation of every character. Also, I think we don't know enough about some of these characters' motivations to make a good judgment. But I guess that's the fun of this, to see how readers perceive these characters and whether those perceptions line up with what you as the author intended.
Graeme Sutton
Nov. 11th, 2013 09:15 pm (UTC)
I notice that there seems to be exactly no agreement on the Grimm Sister's alignments, everyone so far has said something different.
uneko
Nov. 11th, 2013 09:32 pm (UTC)
My alignment discussions with my husband often end with him reminding me that lawful means (in his 3.5ish head) that they adhere to the laws as written by the in-control power. Lawful Good will obey the law to the benefit of all, chotic good will do whatever NEEDS to be done, n their eyes, to benefit everyone. and themselves. Lawful Evil will exploit the rules, find loopholes, and make new laws, while Chaotic evil just does whatever they feel like, without regard for the rules.

I specify that because the alignment cheat sheet you linked to id's lawful as being honorably and truthful, and so forth. and that makes a BIG difference in how I voted the Ozarkers.

I also havn't read the stories in probably about a year.... so, my memories may be fuzzy.

Alex - CG because she does The Right Thing, according to HER rules.

Anna - LG, but Alex has passed on a lot of "chaotic points" so she's edging a bit towards NG. :) she likes the rules and doesn't like breaking them, but can and will if needed.

David - NG, of course. Because hey, there are rules, sure, but doing the good thing is more reasonable.

Constance, Forbearance, and Innocence - Lawful Neutral. They do follow the rules of their society, but I think if Ozarker rules came in conflict with the "american" rules, the Ozarker rules would come first.. Innocence, of course, is rebelling a bit, but there's a difference between wearing your hair under a cap and committing murder. They of course want to do the right thing... but the right thing isn't always the good thing. And then there's the question: If Ozarker rules and American rules DO come into conflict... if they DO follow Ozarker rules.. are they really still "Good"? I mean.. if they had a rule that said they could kill or injure someone who had slighted them most terribly (say, murdered a loved one, a sibling or something), where the american rules would say "imprisoned and put on trial, sentenced, etc" ... Does obeying make them evil? Neutral? Good? The Ozarkers are very hard to place, to me... but I stand by LN... but they follow THEIR rules, even though their rules are a minority. AS for good and evil.... I think they, of everyone, stand for balance. Maybe this is because in my head, they're sitting there holding on to troublesome's arm and pulling on her, will all their might, to keep her standing upright. I could honestly justify any alignment on the good or neutral side of the spectrum for them :) Innocence is more chaotic then her sisters, but only in small ways.

Julia is True neutral. She strikes me as the sort who'd do whatever seemed most right at the time.. regardless of if she had to fib or break rules, though those same rules would give her hesitation as she broke them. she has an inclination to good.

Max was CN He had too much of his father's influence to realy be "good" I think. He has a Good inclination, definetly, though. He only cares about the rules though, in as far as they can serve him to get him out of trouble, or to make him look better. I think he'd eventually have shifted to be CG or NG, but not yet.

Darla is CN... as.. I believe, for the most part, she was being manipulated. that doesn't make someone evil, just gullible. and generally, she was trying to look out for her own interests. In time she MIGHT have become evil, but...

Larry True Nuetral because Neutral :)

Lilith and Diana - NG for both of them.. they flex the rules to do good.. and I believe they both intend to do good... even if the rules don't always agree with them. I gotta laugh at the people who are saying that they're LAWFUL EVIL and stuff XD

Yay char limits. replying to myself with the last few...
uneko
Nov. 11th, 2013 09:32 pm (UTC)
Ms Shirtliffe (how do you say that anyway? Shirt-life?) is LN. Because she has the rules, good and bad, and she obeys them. I believe she's pro-government, generally, and will support it as long as it is generally good or neutral, as long as it's not evil. She has a distinct GOOD leaning, and it's on the border between LN and LG. Wait, damn, I just looked back and saw I voted for LG instead. well, what I wrote still applies :)

Abraham Thorn - CN because fuck the rules. He's trying to do something good, I think, by doing bad things. I could also argue true neutral for him. I don't THINK he's devoted to any particular extremes. he's not Voldemort with a "I want to rules the world" attitude. He just, I think, doesn't want to see the government continue governing as it currently does. Maybe he DOES want to rule the wizarding world, but if he does, I think it's because he feels he can do a better job and provide a more stable, more fair world for the people who live in it.. and how is that any different then, say, the Rebel Alliance battling against the Evil Galactic Empire? it's not. It's all point of view...
Law vs. Chaos - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 12:21 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - shinygobonkers - Nov. 12th, 2013 01:27 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 02:35 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - shinygobonkers - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:07 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:25 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - shinygobonkers - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:31 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - uneko - Nov. 12th, 2013 06:30 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 01:28 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - uneko - Nov. 13th, 2013 01:46 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 13th, 2013 03:28 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Law vs. Chaos - uneko - Nov. 13th, 2013 06:27 am (UTC) - Expand
ng14916
Nov. 11th, 2013 10:32 pm (UTC)
I'm surprised Lilith Grimm's all over the place. She's definitely not lawful or chaotic. She follows the rules for the most part, but she's willing to disobey the government to protect Alexandra and the students. Whether she's good or neutral is another question, but I think she's neutral. She's definitely not evil, though, since she tries to protect Alexandra and the other students.
tealterror0
Nov. 12th, 2013 12:28 am (UTC)
Alex: CG, obvious.

Anna: I seem to have gone against the grain in choosing NG. Anna certainly has a lawful "air" about her, but she doesn't follow the rules because she believes they're right--she follows them to avoid getting punished. She's shown a consistent willingness to break them throughout all the books (mostly because Alex is already breaking them, given, but still). I think Neutral fits.

David: NG, obvious.

Constance & Forbearance: LG, obvious.

Innocence: CG; in many ways she's "young Ozarker Alex" so this is pretty clear. I almost chose Chaotic Neutral actually, since she hasn't really done that much that's really "good," but I'll be charitable and assume it's due to lack of opportunity.

Julia: I went against the grain here and chose LG. She does occasionally bend the rules for Alex, but in general she strikes me as a "good girl" type who almost always follows the rules.

Max: Lol, answers all over the place here; I picked N. I think he has both LN tendencies (he is basically in the army after all) and CN tendencies (following his father), so I figured he averaged out to True Neutral. He's not evil, obviously, but not good either; he'll do anything for people inside his "circle" (family and friends), true, but consistently showed little regard for those outside it.

Darla: CN. Pretty obvious. The only other real option is NE, which is kind of unfair to her. She wasn't evil, she was a 14-year-old.

Larry: CN. I'm surprised True Neutral is the popular option here. Larry has never shown respect for the law or school rules, and indeed consistently breaks them (mostly for the sake of antagonizing Alex, true, but still).

Lilith: NG. This is fairly clear I think. She may be Dean, but she runs the school her way--she doesn't like the government poking its nose in her domain. At the same time, she does her best to help and protect her students (doesn't always succeed of course).

Diana: Wow, people don't like her. I picked LN, though honestly LG is just as likely. Destroying Alex's broom tipped the scales for me, but really, evil? Come on guys.

Shirtliffe: LG. Could be LN, but like with Innocence, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

Abraham: NE. Sorry guys, but "necessarily evil" is still evil. He killed dozens of muggles at the end of Book 2. I almost pegged him as LE, actually, since he does have some sort of moral code, but then I decided "revolutionaries can't be lawful." I kind of regret that now, really; a very good case can be made for LE.
shinygobonkers
Nov. 12th, 2013 01:09 am (UTC)
Yeah I also totally do not see justification for an evil alignment with Diana...
(no subject) - tealterror0 - Nov. 12th, 2013 01:25 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 02:24 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tealterror0 - Nov. 12th, 2013 02:49 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:20 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tealterror0 - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:35 am (UTC) - Expand
Graeme Sutton
Nov. 12th, 2013 12:37 am (UTC)
It appears that by your definition Revolutionaries are always evil as well, unless the government is obliging enough to surrender without a fight. I would strongly disagree with revolutionaries cannot be lawful, from what I've seen that's the preferred alignment for a revolutionary, or at least a successful one (Washington, Lenin, Nehru, each of whom killed way more than a dozen muggles). Whether someone follows school rules is not the defining factor in what makes them lawful.
tealterror0
Nov. 12th, 2013 01:30 am (UTC)
There's a difference between killing enemy soldiers in a war (and a revolution is effectively a civil war) and killing civilians, "collateral damage" or no. Abraham Thorn did the latter. Killing civilians may sometimes (extremely rarely) be "necessary," but it's still evil.

I apologize for being unclear. I agree that revolutionaries can be lawful, and my original reasoning for moving Abraham into the NE category was unsound. That's why I think a strong argument can be given for him being LE. I think it depends on how you interpret "Lawful Evil," which is one of the more complicated alignments.

Whether someone follows school rules is a defining factor in whether or not they're lawful when the person in question is a student. School rules are laws for a student.
(no subject) - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 02:21 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tealterror0 - Nov. 12th, 2013 02:58 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:15 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ng14916 - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:46 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tealterror0 - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:47 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - Graeme Sutton - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:54 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tealterror0 - Nov. 12th, 2013 03:46 am (UTC) - Expand
Graeme Sutton
Nov. 12th, 2013 03:51 am (UTC)
Italy was also filled with enemy civilians, guess which died more in the campaign?
thirdgorchbro
Nov. 12th, 2013 11:58 pm (UTC)
That was fun!

A few minor thoughts for the three characters I tagged as evil - for Darla, I picked Neutral Evil. She had no grand designs, but she wasn't doing evil stuff for the shits & giggles, either (that was Manuelito's bag). She just wanted to save her sister, and was willing to do anything - even sacrifice an innocent.

Diana Grimm - Lawful Evil. Based on what we've seen of her character so far, it seems she values order over justice. She can't be blind to the corruption of the Confederation, and I'd lay even odds she knows something about the Deathly Regiment. But she is willing to ignore all that, even be a part of it, rather than accept change. The "Good German."

Abraham Thorn. I had the hardest time deciding for him. Some people have made a good case for Lawful Evil. I went with Neutral Evil, because because he's clearly not some chaotic psychopath like John Manuelito, but he also doesn't seem to have ever given much of a hoot for following rules. As for why Neutral Evil instead of True Neutral or NG, it seems clear from the text that he has delved into the dark arts and murdered people (some of Manuelito's associates, for example).
kerneyhead
Nov. 13th, 2013 02:21 am (UTC)
http://eminence.dkpsystem.com/viewthread.php?threadid=922&p=1#p5008

My favorite alignment chart. Looking at books and the divisions, the one thing I'm noticing is "Thorn's Revolt" seems to be more of a Law/Chaos divide than a good/evil thing.

The Confederation is on the evil side of the lawful side but there are good people like Mary Shirtcliffe on their side, who believe in the system and want to make it work.

Abraham Thorne tried to work in the system but has now turned against it. I think he started out Lawful good, then became Chaotic good at anger at the system, tried to fix it, and is now Chaotic Neutral.

The Ozarkers, and to a lesser extent the Chinese wizardling culture, follow their own 'laws'. Anna and the Pritchards are loyal to those 'laws'.

I can see both Constance and Anna heading toward neutral good. Anna because of the pull of her best friend, Constance because she and David are eventually be a couple and that will be a break from Ozarker custom.

Ultimately, Alexandra Quick as a series about lawful evil vs chaotic good in alignment terms, with Abraham being a warning about the fall into Chaotic Evil i.e. don't become a monster while opposing the monsterous.

Least that's how I see it.
tealterror0
Nov. 13th, 2013 03:12 am (UTC)
Huh. Come to think of it, Firefly really does have some almost-perfect exemplars of the alignments. I do disagree with some of that chart, though:

The Operative--I agree with the commenter who says he's Lawful Evil. Firebombing a civilian town leaves little doubt. Simon is probably a better fit for Lawful Neutral.

Saffron--She's not a psycho, she's just willing to do anything for her own personal profit, which is Neutral Evil in a nutshell. Besides, the Reapers Reavers are classic Chaotic Evil anyway.

Edited at 2013-11-13 03:18 am (UTC)
( 41 comments — Leave a comment )

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